Armenian Officials Emphasize the Importance of Ceasefire and Verification Mechanisms: Mnatsakanyan's Interview with Deutsche Welle

The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Armenia, Zohrab Mnatsakanyan, has given an interview to Deutsche Welle, which we present in full.

Deutsche Welle: Currently, battles are ongoing in the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh, which is governed by ethnic Armenians but recognized by the international community as part of Azerbaijan. Hundreds of casualties have already been reported. You have participated in two mediated negotiations to establish a ceasefire. However, fighting continues nonetheless. What responsibility do Armenia and the forces you support in that region bear for the ongoing battles?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: We are fully committed to the joint statement made in Moscow on October 10 and the statement of October 17, and we are fully dedicated to respecting the ceasefire and returning to negotiations to reach a peaceful resolution to this conflict. We have consistently upheld this commitment. However, the Azerbaijani side has chosen the option of war. Both ceasefires were violated immediately after agreements were reached, and there has been no peace established either on the contact line or across the entire area where the conflict is taking place. Today, we have issued a statement reaffirming our full commitment to the agreements expressed in both of those statements.

Deutsche Welle: Mr. Minister, you claim that you are committed. But I want to ask you directly: on Saturday, the Azerbaijani side reported that 14 people were killed overnight due to shelling by Armenia in Ganja, the country’s second-largest city. You claim to be committed—what is your responsibility?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Let me address this in the appropriate context. A ceasefire should have been established at 12 PM on October 10. The forces of Artsakh were fully committed to this agreement. We have exhibited restraint, but shelling has continued, and massive attacks persisted, with our settlements in Artsakh continuously subjected to artillery bombardment, air strikes, and missile attacks. At this moment, we have 38 civilian casualties, 116 serious injuries, and over 8,000 destroyed infrastructure and property.

Deutsche Welle: You have casualties; the other side claims they have casualties as well. Azerbaijanis say that since the beginning of the fighting, 60 people have died and 270 have been injured. Therefore, I just want to ask you, since I am interviewing you right now: both sides are accusing each other, they claim that you started it, you claim that they started it. Someone, or both of you, is lying. And that is not a good sign for two countries that need to sit together and find a peaceful solution to the conflict, is it?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: It was an excellent observation regarding mutual accusations. This is precisely the roundabout path that has been taken to engage in mutual blame and to continue attacks on the civilian population of Artsakh. We have continuously proposed to introduce verification mechanisms for the ceasefire. If the Armenian sides—Artsakh and Armenia—are being accused in any way, then let us take that step and establish verification mechanisms to end all of this. However, Azerbaijan systematically avoids this, persistently rejecting these proposals, as this is a convenient way to deceive and engage us in this game, assuring the international community that there is no way forward.

Deutsche Welle: Very well. As we mentioned, such accusations are coming from both sides, Mr. Foreign Minister. So, I would like to know what your message is. After the first ceasefire agreement, days later, the Prime Minister of Armenia stated in his message: “At this decisive moment, we cannot surrender, as this is our people's selfless war,” adding that “we will fight to the end, that is, until free and happy Artsakh.” I want to know from you, since this occurred just days after the first ceasefire agreement, and he speaks of fighting to the end—does such rhetoric contribute to establishing a ceasefire and peace?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: When for three and a half weeks you are subjected to such a massive assault, when your people are facing an existential threat, the danger of existence on the planet, when you are fighting for your life, when the ceasefire is continually violated, when you are obviously fighting for your life... I emphasize once again with full responsibility that the Armenian sides highlight the importance of ceasefire and verification mechanisms. I strongly reaffirm Armenia's commitment to the ceasefire and the commitments made on October 10 and 17. Artsakh has also reaffirmed its support for this. But to sit and wait for when you and your family will be killed, when your property will be destroyed, you need to understand that this is an existential fight for survival. This is the essence of this conflict. I want to return to the very important issue that you also raised, and that is the question of a peaceful resolution.

Deutsche Welle: Of course, and we will certainly talk about that. But before we move on to that, I would like to once again address you. Russia is your partner, with which you have a defense contract and which is working diligently to mediate the ceasefire agreements. Its Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov, has told you to “stop provocative, warlike rhetoric.” Therefore, I would like to once again refer to that: It seems that with such rhetoric, you are not sending signals that you are serious about peace and negotiations in this climate of rhetoric. Are you prepared to take responsibility for that?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Regarding that rhetoric, we are dealing with a rhetoric that is based on xenophobia and incitement to kill Armenians. Today we are witnessing beheadings of our compatriots in Artsakh, mutilation of corpses, and this is a result of the incitement of that rhetoric. And this reality is not new. This has been happening for quite some time. We have also witnessed instances of glorification of the murderers of our compatriots in Artsakh. What I would like to emphasize is that I fully agree that such rhetoric contributes nothing. Rhetoric even poisons that process. And the peaceful resolution has absolutely no alternative. This is what we have been so consistent about. When it comes to peaceful resolution, we have been consistently working, and we have always stood for peace based on agreements that take into account the interests of all sides.

Deutsche Welle: So, you admit that rhetoric does not help and that you want to pursue a peaceful solution. Therefore, I would like to ask you in that context, to talk about how this situation arose. And I want to go back a year. For several months, the situation remained tense, and let’s return to what your Prime Minister said. More than a year ago, he visited Artsakh, which, let’s note, is a disputed area, and called for the reunification of Armenia and Artsakh. He said the following: “Artsakh is Armenia, and that’s it,” which incited the crowd to chant “unification,” a nationalist slogan that gained popularity in the 1980s and 1990s when Armenians fought for Artsakh's separation from Azerbaijan. Do you acknowledge that more than a year ago this was an overt provocation to the other side? If you want peace, why would the Prime Minister visit Artsakh and make such statements?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Now, let me return to that observation that the Artsakh issue relates to the existence of our compatriots, to the physical threat they have been facing for a very long time. When the Prime Minister made such a statement, he specifically meant Armenia's responsibility as the only guarantor of the physical security of our compatriots, the only guarantor looking after the safety of our compatriots. They are capable of self-defense, but they have no other guarantee apart from Armenia. The Prime Minister has indeed been very consistent in his specific approaches to resolving the conflict. In that same speech, the Prime Minister referenced the negotiation process, reiterating the fundamental approaches that Armenia promotes a compromise-based solution, which means that the interests of all sides must be taken into account. However, what we are dealing with is a portion taken deliberately out of context regarding the Prime Minister’s speech without taking into account everything else he said in that speech and on a constant basis.

Deutsche Welle: This comment was specifically made by your Prime Minister. We talk a lot about vocabulary and rhetoric, and I would also like to consider the actions that you have taken. Currently, there is a third road planned to be constructed in the disputed territory from Armenia to Artsakh. Several parliamentary committees of the EU have condemned this move. Here is what they say: “The decision to construct this highway was made in violation of international law, without the consent of Azerbaijan's relevant authorities.” So these are not just words; they are real, concrete actions by Armenia and the government supported by Armenia in that region. These provocations are not just words; they are actions, aren’t they?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Now let’s address this again. Let’s look at it from another perspective. For 30 years, Azerbaijan has spared no effort to isolate Artsakh from this world, to cut off the people of Artsakh from any connection to the outside world by blocking everything that can contribute to normal life in Artsakh, preventing any action undertaken by the international community aimed at providing a normal life to the people of Artsakh. There are people living in Artsakh. Look, now we have a situation where 90,000 people are displaced, 8,000 units of property and infrastructure have been destroyed. It is a humanitarian situation in Artsakh, and what do we have? Should we leave them alone? Should we ignore the lives of our people, our compatriots? Are those lives less important?

Deutsche Welle: But that was not my question, Mr. Foreign Minister. My question was: do you acknowledge that the actions you have undertaken in that region are provocative, and that they are interpreted as such by the other side?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: I apologize; I must say again. What is not provocative? Allowing our people to be oppressed in Artsakh? Should we leave our people isolated in Artsakh? Are they less important than any other people in the world? Forgive me, I cannot agree with this, and I will never agree with this. Our people should not be oppressed. They are people like others. And this is precisely their political policy toward Artsakh—to humiliate, to deny them dignity, to security, and to the right to live freely. And now you tell me that what we’re doing to enable our compatriots to live a normal life is a provocative action. I cannot agree with that.

Deutsche Welle: Absolutely not. I am simply asking you about the road you are planning to build in Artsakh, which the other side considers provocative, Mr. Foreign Minister. The next action I would also like to ask you about that has been viewed as provocative by the other side is related to the recent elections—specifically, the swearing-in ceremony in Shushi, which before the 1992-1994 war was populated predominantly by Azerbaijanis and was a key symbol of Azerbaijan's claims over that territory, apparently incited significant resentment in Azerbaijan, further exacerbated by your Prime Minister's presence at the swearing-in ceremony. The European Union has recognized these elections as illegitimate according to international legal standards. Do you acknowledge that this was also provocative?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Again, the European Union did not say that. The EU recognized that Artsakh is a community of people who organize their lives in a democratic way...

Deutsche Welle: They said, referring to the so-called presidential and parliamentary elections in Artsakh, that they reiterated that they do not recognize the constitutional and legal frameworks.

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Yes, exactly the constitutional and legal framework, but they do not deny the right of the population of Artsakh to organize their lives democratically and to choose their representatives democratically. And the accusations coming from Azerbaijan are, to say the least, absurd. They come from a society that has seen nothing but a family ruling for more than two decades. And to speak of a democratic process and to deny our people's right to democratic process and impose their methods on the people of Artsakh… that is not going to work.

Deutsche Welle: I would also like to ask you, since we have talked so much about peace. I would like to ask you what stage that process is at, and what your role is in all of this. Because the international community is indeed calling on you to take the lead in moving towards compromise on this issue. You say that you are working with the OSCE Minsk Group, which has the responsibility to assist in resolving the conflict. But you could even have managed to take steps concerning some of the fundamental principles that were put forward by the Minsk Group over a decade ago, including the return of lands to Azerbaijan, referring to the adjacent regions of Artsakh. Therefore, I want to ask you: are the territories more important to you than peace?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: For us, the most important thing is the free life of our compatriots in Artsakh in dignity and security, their safety. Therefore, for us the security and status of Artsakh are paramount. That has been Armenia's consistent position, and we continue to work on that basis. We have the necessary criteria to devise the compromise that addresses our interests, while at the same time this should happen in a measurable balance so that the interests of the other side are also addressed. For us, the territories are not more important than the devastation, these continuous strikes, air bombings, and shelling that have threatened these people for three and a half weeks. They are living in shelters, and all of this is happening in the context of a pandemic. But that is the least of Azerbaijan’s concerns. Apparently, they are unconcerned about the lives of their own people, they are intent on their choice of war.

Deutsche Welle: Returning to that, I would like to ask you since the former US ambassador to Armenia, Richard Mills, when he left the country in 2018 assessed the situation as follows: he said he was worried about how few Armenians were willing to make concessions to Azerbaijan on the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh, he quoted: “The harsh reality is that any settlement will require a return of at least some of the occupied territories.” It seems he does not believe that you are serious about that.

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: I do not agree with that assessment; I do not agree with Richard Mills' assessment. I would reiterate that I have not seen any signs of compromise from Azerbaijan. What we have consistently witnessed is maximalism and a rhetoric that sows hatred, and Azerbaijan’s unwillingness to compromise. However, let’s set that aside and return to the issue of compromise. In the last two years, our government has been fully committed to moving forward with the peace process.

Deutsche Welle: Very well. Let me ask you: since when your government came to power as a result of the so-called “velvet revolution” in 2018, there were such great hopes of alleviating the conflict. And here is how the International Crisis Group assessed the situation: according to their claims, progress was tangible, and the new government was willing to find a compromise solution, and it seemed like the Azerbaijani government responded similarly. But then, they cited this rhetoric, this rhetoric of mutual threats that we discussed earlier in our conversation. In this context, I would like to ask: has the bloodshed and toxic rhetoric from both sides limited your ability to reach an agreement, and have you not missed the opportunity to take advantage of that initial hope, and have you possibly overestimated your capabilities?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: I believe you are raising a very important question. Look, over the past two years, part of our work within the framework of the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairmanship has been the creation of an environment conducive to peace. And we have put in considerable effort into all of this, by the way, collaboratively. Together with Artsakh and Azerbaijan, we have worked towards steps that could somehow alleviate or reduce tension and mutual distrust. We implemented a very interesting program in the fall of 2019 when journalists had reciprocal visits to Yerevan, Baku, and Stepanakert. This was a very modest but important step; it did not fail. And we were completely confident, and the Armenian side clearly understood that we needed to make efforts to create an environment conducive to peace. What we see now is those efforts were in vain, which is very unfortunate. Regarding opportunities, our work and our duty is to never give up, to utilize every opportunity and any window, no matter how small it may be. We agree to walk through any corridor because this is a responsibility, and it relates to the lives of our people. We care about our people’s lives; every life is important to us. And now we have so many casualties. I hope the Azerbaijani side also possesses that sense of responsibility. We would like to see that in practice. And that must be expressed in terms of halting military operations, a ceasefire, the introduction of verification mechanisms, and moving forward with the peace process.

Deutsche Welle: And Mr. Foreign Minister, since each side has a similar message and since each side awaits steps from the other, I would like to place this within the larger regional picture, as NATO ally Turkey is, of course, quite persistently supporting Azerbaijan and should be noted is pushing the option of a military solution. You have a defense agreement with Russia, as we know, but so far they have remained relatively neutral. Do you now lack friends?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: We have never lacked friends. But you raised a very important question regarding the main provocateur—Turkey. Turkey continues to be a destabilizing force in this situation. We have consistently warned about this; we are witnessing this destabilizing aggressive policy of Turkey in every direction of its neighborhood—Middle East, North Africa, the Middle East—and we are fully aware of the dangers of exporting such destabilizing policies to our region. We are seeing signs of that, such as when military weaponry was transferred to Azerbaijan when foreign militant terrorists recruited in Turkey-controlled sections of Libya and Syria were being transported to Azerbaijan. And what Azerbaijan has done is utterly absurd. Azerbaijan has now become a hotbed of terrorism.

Deutsche Welle: But Mr. Minister, my question was about whether you see the risk of being isolated in the region because the European Council and external relations have given the following assessment: they say that Russia’s relatively neutral response regarding the recent clashes between Armenia and Azerbaijan reflects fatigue with an inflexible ally in the negotiations. There is a perception in Moscow that the balance of power has shifted over the past two decades in favor of Azerbaijan, and rather than opting for an acceptable deal, Armenia is acting from an inflexible and uncompromising position. Russia doesn’t want to take on the geopolitical responsibility for that. Are you afraid of isolation?

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: I do not agree with this assessment. Look, we have the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairmanship, of which Russia is a responsible member. We have allied relations with Russia, and we have many other partners around the world. Now, the essence of the question is that we have been consistent regarding the ceasefire and the personal involvement of President Putin on October 10 and President Macron on October 17. This must be realized. Therefore, I cannot agree with the argument that Armenia is uncompromising. The protection of the Armenian population of Artsakh by the forces of Artsakh with the support of Armenia simply pertains to the protection of human life in Artsakh. But again, how many times do I have to say that peaceful resolution has no alternative?

Deutsche Welle: Very well, we must stop here. Thank you very much, Mr. Foreign Minister Zohrab Mnatsakanyan, for joining the “Conflict Zone” program.

Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Thank you.