NATO or NATO Member Turkey: No One Invited Them, They Are Unwanted Guests in the Artsakh Issue

Armen Sarkissian, the President of the Republic of Armenia, gave an interview to the Russian television network "Дождь."

Question: Mr. President, thank you for accepting our invitation. Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan stated yesterday that the ceasefire in Nagorno-Karabakh is not in effect, it does not exist.

Answer: I am also grateful for this meeting. Indeed, the ceasefire is not effectively in place. It has not worked from the very first day, as immediately at 12:00 when the ceasefire was supposed to come into effect, unfortunately, the Azerbaijani side began shelling Stepanakert. My government colleagues report that in many areas, this ceasefire simply does not exist.

Question: How do you interpret this? After all, the parties spent 11 hours in Moscow around the negotiation table. It is clear that the negotiations were not easy, each side was insisting on its viewpoint. But as a result, some compromises were reached. How can we interpret the fact that gunfire has resumed?

Answer: In essence, any ceasefire is not an easy task. We all need to be thankful to the Russian side because Russia has good and close relations with both Armenia and Azerbaijan, which is why that particular country can act as a mediator not only in negotiations as a co-chair but also perhaps it is the only country that can mediate to stop military operations along the contact line and beyond. Unfortunately, there are a large number of casualties among the innocent local population in towns and villages.

I can say from our side that the residents of Nagorno-Karabakh did not start the war. The war was initiated by Azerbaijan, and from the very first day, they have also shelled Stepanakert and villages. I believe that the very fragile ceasefire has not been effective due to the Azerbaijani side. The Armenian side has no fundamental issues; on the contrary, the people of Artsakh want to stop the firing and military operations for a very simple reason—they are fighting for their home. For them, victory means preserving and protecting their home. And since they did not start the war, they are interested in halting military activities.

Question: Azerbaijan claims that they have liberated various settlements, villages in Artsakh. To what extent is it possible to confirm or refute this information?

Answer: That is more a question for the government, the Armenian Ministry of Defense, and representatives of the Artsakh Republic than to me. I can say, however, that unfortunately, when the Azerbaijani side speaks of liberation, I do not understand that word. Who are they liberating these cities and villages from when the majority of the population living there has always been Armenian? Are they liberating them from Armenians? In political vocabulary, this is called ethnic cleansing, and not liberation. For the side of Artsakh, this is a war for their home, the home where they have lived for millennia, a war for their faith, family, children, and dignity. When the Azerbaijani side speaks of liberation, it is nothing other than ethnic cleansing. Unfortunately, the Armenian people, including the people of Artsakh, are witnessing for the second time 105 years later the same thing that happened in the Ottoman Empire during the Armenian Genocide of 1915.

Therefore, it is difficult for me to reason about any "liberations" when in this case it means land without those who inhabit it, meaning ethnic cleansing.

Question: In this case, the Azerbaijani side relies on the presence of refugees during discussions. They claim that they have one million people who include those displaced from their homes and their descendants who have a right to return home. What do you respond to this?

Answer: First of all, I find it very interesting where that million lived in Artsakh. One must simply take the statistics of Artsakh when it was part of Azerbaijan for 65 years as an autonomous region. Even during the Soviet era, there could not have been a million people living there.

When you speak of millions, unfortunately, all those figures take us back 30 years to when the conflict began. And the conflict began very simply from the moment the people of Artsakh were inspired by the fact after the collapse of the USSR that nations could pursue self-determination and proclaim independence. Throughout their millennia of history, they had only been part of the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic for 65 years, and that too with the light hand of Joseph Stalin, who was a master of national conflicts and promoted the politics of 'divide and conquer.' For 65 years, Azerbaijan did everything it could to break the trust of Armenians living alongside them as they tried to do today—to have Artsakh without Armenians. However, the people of Artsakh have repeatedly witnessed attacks and wars yet always remained next to the Christian temples built in the 3rd and 4th centuries, beside the gardens planted by their ancestors.

When this all began, when in 1988 the people of Artsakh declared their desire to live freely and manage their lives independently, the response from Baku was the pogroms in Baku, Sumgait, and throughout Azerbaijan. At that time, indeed hundreds of thousands of Armenians fled Azerbaijan. And herein lies a simple question—do these people have the right to return to their home?

Question: What is the Armenian position? Are you ready to negotiate perhaps the return of some of these refugees?

Answer: Once again, I repeat—where is that million who lived in the territory of Artsakh, even during the Soviet era?

Journalist: They say that generations have been born, and that counts too.

Answer: When we talk specifically about Artsakh, the majority has been Armenians even during the Soviet years. Speaking about millions makes no logical sense. If you are talking about refugees, then you must also resolve the issue of Armenian refugees. Why did Azerbaijan leave the negotiating table and resort to military actions? Is it possible to assess this from political and humanitarian perspectives? How does Azerbaijan bomb the villages and towns of Artsakh from the very first days of the war? Today, Stepanakert seems like a city from World War II, as bombs fall there every day. However, the most important question that should be thoroughly discussed is the status of Artsakh. If today we listen to the rhetoric of Azerbaijanis, they are liberating and that’s it. That is to say, ethnic cleansing.

There are many questions, and for more than 20 years the Minsk Group, co-chaired by Russia, the USA, and France, has been addressing exactly this. However, after so much work, after this process, on September 27, Azerbaijan decided, and perhaps they had prepared this together with Turkey earlier, to start a war.

Question: You spoke about the status of Nagorno-Karabakh. What status do you consider more effective for the protection of civilians?

Answer: When the ceasefire was signed in 1994, the Armenians won the war, and at that time Armenia had the opportunity to recognize the independence of Artsakh. However, Armenia has not done that until now. This does not mean that Armenia does not think that Artsakh has the right to self-determination. There is a very simple reason. Armenia did not want the recognition of Artsakh, or making it part of Armenia, to jeopardize the peace negotiation process. The Armenian side has not raised this issue and has allowed peace negotiations, going through a certain process, to lead to the final status of Nagorno-Karabakh being established, which would be acceptable to both us and the other side. To avoid complicating this entire process, the Armenian side has not recognized Nagorno-Karabakh.

Question: And now?

Answer: Now it’s the same. If we think that at the end of this tunnel, which is called war, there is light, and we can stop this process through a ceasefire, there may be an opportunity to work on building trust between the sides and return to the negotiating table. In that context, by the way, there have been many achievements. Three powerful countries guarantee this process, which is around that negotiation table. In that case, of course, Armenia will wait. However, if at the end of this tunnel there is complete darkness, and the other side constantly says that apart from ethnic cleansing, they want nothing but to liberate Artsakh from Armenians, then Armenia will have no choice but to recognize the independence of Artsakh and urge all its friends around the world to also recognize the independence of Artsakh. To reiterate, Armenia does not recognize it today, has not recognized it over the last 20 years—allowing peace negotiations to reach a final goal. This is very important, because, in principle, if you look, in the whole world, every war somehow ends. They have to end through agreement. It may be possible to carry out ethnic cleansing in some territory, but in any case, it means that confrontations between peoples, states, people, nations will not cease and will continue from generation to generation. And we want a final peaceful solution to exist so that people in this region live peacefully and comfortably for their children, grandchildren, and that they build something.

Question: Armenia does not intend to withdraw its forces from the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, as demanded by Azerbaijan, and Azerbaijan is also not ready to concede positions and accept the special status of Nagorno-Karabakh. All this gives grounds to assume that we will not see a final resolution of this issue in the near future.

I know that you have worked for many years in Great Britain, notably as an ambassador. Today there are often claims directed at European countries, asking why they are not being active, why they are not intervening, why they are not supporting Armenia. Do you have the impression, Mr. President, that Europeans have somehow stepped aside; perhaps they are preoccupied with their own issues and do not wish to intervene?

Answer: You asked two questions. Regarding the first question, I should note that the Army of the Republic of Artsakh protects Artsakh. There are also Armenians from Armenia. Many Armenians from Armenia, Russia, the USA, Argentina, and Europe participated in the first Nagorno-Karabakh war because for Armenians, first and foremost, Artsakh is the homeland. It is a homeland where Armenians have lived for many years. Today it has become more difficult because Turkey is openly participating in this conflict. They are participating along the entire spectrum—from military technology, aircraft, UAVs to generals and soldiers. Turkey has also brought Islamist terrorists to this region. This is also a fact and proven. From the perspective of the Armenians living in Artsakh, this war is for their home. Those people who have lived in Artsakh for many years do not trust Azerbaijan. The Soviet Union collapsed. If Armenians lived in Azerbaijan in a brotherly or friendly atmosphere, why would they want to hold a referendum and declare that they want independence? Because even during those 65 years, the Azerbaijani side constantly tried to see Nagorno-Karabakh without Armenians. That is to say, there is no trust. In that sense, the independence status that the people of Artsakh have is the minimum they cannot go below.

I have been an ambassador not only in Great Britain but in many countries, including the Netherlands, Luxembourg, I have been Armenia's ambassador to the European Union and NATO. Let’s start with NATO. NATO is a prestigious large organization. Turkey, as a NATO member, trains and educates its soldiers, officers, and generals according to the methods stipulated by NATO, using known technological military texts. They conduct joint exercises with NATO. They use NATO weapons. Today, NATO member Turkey is participating in a war that has nothing to do with NATO. Did Turkey receive a mandate from NATO to participate in this war? Or is the mandate for them that they say that Azerbaijanis are their brothers? Perhaps they have brothers in many countries—in Central Asia, perhaps in Mongolia, China, or God knows where? Does that give them the right to participate in this war? Or they speak about some Kurdish militants. This is just absurdity. They say they are protecting energy resources, gas pipelines, and oil pipelines. This is also absurd. If such a danger existed, then how did Armenians allow for 20 years for those gas and oil pipelines to operate through which Azerbaijan has had substantial revenues, made billions of dollars, and bought weapons used against Armenians? Armenians have never fired at those pipelines for a very simple reason: Armenians know what international law means.

I will agree with you when you say that Europe is not taking sufficient steps today. I would like Europe’s voice to be heard louder. France is doing this; President Macron is actively engaged in this issue. However, it is not enough because today, to solve the problem, a ceasefire is necessary, military actions must cease. Those military actions cannot cease if Turkey decides to continue its meddling. It is very important to exclude Turkey from this equation to facilitate the solution of this problem and go through negotiations. Perhaps the Turkish side is not interested in the military actions ceasing. It does not serve their interests that a new round of negotiations between the sides begins and that a peaceful resolution is found.

Question: However, have the parties been ready to sit at the negotiation table with the Turkish side? Is it possible to imagine a dialogue between Armenia and Turkey?

Answer: If you have a good imagination, you can possibly imagine everything.

Question: As you note, they are constantly participating in this conflict...

Answer: You know, no one invited them there. They are uninvited guests. This conflict has nothing to do with Turkey, which is a NATO member. No one invited NATO or a NATO member. If a NATO member participates in military operations, it means NATO is also participating. We can interpret it this way too. No one invited them; they came themselves and declare that they have some reason for it. You know what, if they engage in international politics and diplomacy this way, it will lead to very sad results everywhere. You can talk to everyone, especially when you talk about saving human lives—not just of soldiers but also of civilian populations, basically an entire nation that has lived in Artsakh for thousands of years. It is possible to talk to everyone. However, I repeat, the international community has decided that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue should be dealt with by the OSCE Minsk Group, where there are co-chairing countries—Russia, the USA, and the European Union represented by France.

Journalist: Let us hope that the ceasefire will eventually be implemented. At this moment, of course, the most important thing is the preservation of human lives.